Conceptualizing the Effects of Motivation with Dr. Kaplan

Something I notice constantly, in my friends and in myself, is how unpredictable motivation can feel during the teenage years. Unfortunately, motivation is not something adolescents can ignore as it shapes our academic performance, ambitions, friendships, and even self-confidence. So, in this episode, I wanted to explore questions like: What actually causes motivation to fluctuate so much during adolescence? What helps young people stay engaged and persistent, especially when things get difficult? And how can teens better understand the internal and external forces that influence their drive? To guide us through these questions, I’m excited to welcome Dr. Kaplan.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi everyone and welcome back to Growing Forward, a podcast by Positive World, Positive People. As always, I am your host, Sadie Sonaborn Malachy, a 15-year-old girl from Southern California, and I'm really glad you're here with me today. If you're joining, just joining us, welcome to Growing Forward. This podcast is about unpacking what it really means to grow up today, the social pressures, the emotional shifts, and the mental challenges through conversations with researchers and professionals who dedicate their work to understanding adolescence. Something I notice constantly in my friends and in myself is how unpredictable motivation can feel during the teenage years. One week, we're ambitious and energized, settling for goals and chasing them. Next, we feel drained, distracted, or unsure of what we even want to work for. Motivation shapes our academic performance, our ambitions, our friendships, and even our self-confidence. Yet it often feels confusing and sometimes out of our control. In this episode, I wanted to explore questions like what actually causes motivation to fluctuate so much during adolescence, what helps young people stay engaged and persistent, especially when things get difficult, and how can teens better understand the internal and external forces that influence their drive. So to guide us through these questions, I'm honored to welcome Dr. Abby Kaplan. Dr. Kaplan is a professor at Temple University whose research centers on adolescent motivation, engagement, and development. His work sheds light not just on how motivation operates, but on what it plays such a crucial role in shaping teenagers' academic paths and emerging identities. So without further ado, Dr. Kaplan, thank you so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Well, thank you very much, Sadie, for inviting me. I'm very excited to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Awesome. So to begin, what first got you interested in studying adolescent motivation and engagement? What really drew you to this topic?

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Well, it started having been an adolescent myself and remembering myself as a teen, being motivated and then unmotivated for different things and at different times, being confused about why I wasn't very motivated for certain activities that were important, seemed important, happy when I was motivated, frustrated at the things that I needed to do. So having, you know, all the experiences of being a teen, um, and also seeing my friends, right? So and comparing myself to my friends. So some of them were I was an okay student, but some of my friends were really good students. And I was like, what's going on? Like, why? And they were also sometimes motivated, sometimes less. Some of them were a perfectionist, some of them were more wanted to be with socially engaged with other people. I mean, I was thinking, it's it's not that some people have uh a lot of motivation all the time and some people don't. It's more like, what are you motivated for? What am I motivated for in asking that question and why? So that carried with me, and then I became a teacher. And I became a teacher, not in a regular school classroom, but in a field studies uh program. I would, it was it's like hands-on education. I would take high school kids to hikes, and we would do, you know, we learned orienteering and we learned about the flofauna and the fora and teaching various skills like little survival skills, and I was seeing how this kind of education motivates kids differently. So kids who are not motivated in school suddenly are motivated there. So I realized the role of the activity and the environment in people's motivation. And then I went and studied psychology and became really interested in that from the scientific perspective. And through studying and reflecting on my own experience as a teen and as an educator, I realized that motivation is not just something that people, some people have, some people don't, but all of us have motivation. And the question is, what are we deciding to invest it in?

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

And so motivation is whether you find yourself in a situation that makes you feel like you care about what you're doing and how how you care about it.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

So then I decided to go to graduate school and actually study it as a scientist and to really pursue the question: what actually helps teens care about topics and activities and be motivated to also?

SPEAKER_01 4:21

That's awesome. I love that it roots back from when you were just a teen and having those friends. And a lot of time, the time in society, obviously, we're around our peers 24-7. We're in classrooms, we're in hobbies, activities, whatever it may be. We're surrounded by our peers. And as you said, they can have a lot of influence on how we feel about ourselves and what we do in our lives. And that correlates directly to motivation, as you said. Sometimes you have a super high achieving friend, and that can be so intimidating. And sometimes you yourself question am I doing enough? Am I doing this in the same way? When, as you said, in reality, every person is their own individual person. And they all have motivational skills. It's just how we interact with it and work with it. And during this conversation, I hope to uncover and discuss that topic more and just expand upon the idea that we all have motivation. And as you said, our interests really correlate with what we're motivated to, because I'm not going to like the exact same thing as who's sitting next to me or who's sitting across from me. We're all our own person. So it really just depends. But I love that you already started highlighting that because that is such a big topic I want to discuss. As I said earlier in the introduction, sometimes motivation can feel like it's coming and going. It's kind of this wave effect, and it's not always consistent. And for a developmental perspective, why do teens experience motivation differently than children or adults? Or do we experience it in the same way? Or what are the factors that actually correlate to that?

SPEAKER_00 5:52

So these are excellent questions. It's important to remember that, and I think we all can relate when we look at ourselves, that motivation goes up and down and fluctuates for everyone and at every age, not just in adolescence. I mean, the real question is not: are you a person that you have a lot of motivation or don't have a lot of motivation, but where does your motivation show up? Like when uh does it make itself apparent and what makes it rise and what makes it fall. So, I mean, even in things that we love doing, right? Like you might love sports, but sometimes you are more motivated to engage in your sports and sometimes less. But even you know, gaming or friends, like sometimes some days you're highly motivated, and other times you're less. So, and also the motivation has patterns. Like sometimes it starts low and then it grows during the activity, and sometimes you start all energized and then it drops. And it's it's important to keep that in mind. Now, adolescence is a special period for motivation because what teens experience is a bunch of things changing at the same time. So your body is changing, your brain is changing, your social world is changing, what people expect of you is changing. So you're experiencing all these changes, and with that, what happens in adolescence is you're starting to develop the ability also to think about yourself more deeply.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

And start to ask yourself questions like, who am I? Like, what are my values? What are my interests? What do I want to become? How can I imagine myself becoming? What do I want to avoid becoming? What kind of life do I want? Um, and that's that's a very challenging period. And to also engage with, oh, and you need to go to school and you need to do chores and you need to do this, and you need to satisfy these expectations. So this is why it's a very turbulent time. Like we all experience these motivations ebb and flow. So motivation comes and goes in adolescence as a natural thing. And even and even when adolescents feel like they're moody, it's not a flaw, right? It is because you're experiencing all these changes and emotions, and like you're suddenly thinking more complexly, but your emotions didn't catch up yet, and you there's a gap there. You are in teens are in a life phase where motivation actually, with all these questions, is being re-evaluated.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

And reorganized. So you start thinking like this is who I was as a younger child, as a as a as a uh preteen, but do I want to stay this way? Do I want to change? Like I was really interested in that, in soccer, but not do I really want to stay involved in soccer because everything is changing. So when your world around you changes in such a way when you are changing, then it ebbs and flow, motivation ebbs and flow because of the situations you find yourself in, and the situation matches your the questions that you're asking yourself and the mood you're in, etc. So um it's it's interesting to examine, and maybe we'll talk about it a little later.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Like, how can you track, you know, when my motivation ebbs and flows and when all of these different things and all those components that you mentioned are so crucial because, especially as an adolescent, sometimes we don't always realize that we're in this stage of life where there is so much happening to us. As you said, we're at this point where we're just children, and then all of a sudden we have all these expectations placed upon us. We're supposed to discover who we are, we're supposed to do good in school so that hopefully the rest of our life can be dedicated to this one thing that we're gonna decide to do. And then we have parental expectations, peer expectations. There's all these different things and all of these different factors that are contributing to our lives at this moment in time. And yes, like you mentioned, motivation happens throughout your entire life, no matter if you're an adolescent or if you're an adult. But during this moment, because there's so many different things and so many different components that are just shifting and so many alterations are occurring, it's this time of just like emotions are heightened and things are gonna be moving, factors are gonna be moving. That's just a fact of life. And I like highlighting that a lot of the times because we have to give ourselves grace. We have to realize that not every day is gonna be perfect. No matter the age you are, once you grow older or when you're younger, you're not gonna be perfect. Nobody is perfect. That's like the definition of perfect cannot be synthesized into one singular human being. But embracing that and working with it and finding ways to actually come out, hopefully, on a better side of things and looking at it a different light is the perspective that we should be addressing. And okay, yes, maybe one day I feel super motivated to do my schoolwork and just be on top of things. And then the next day I'm like, you know, I really just want to sit in my bed. That's okay. And embracing it isn't okay. So I love that you mentioned that. We talked about peers and teachers and parentals and all of these different things, they're external factors. So, in your research, what are some of the biggest factors that influence whether a teen feels motivated or not, both inside of school and outside of school?

SPEAKER_00 11:06

So, first, I want to emphasize one thing to remember about motivation or to realize about motivation is that it's not just one thing that goes up and down. Um, you also have different types of motivation. So two people can be very highly motivated, but in very different ways. Like one can be very motivated in a task in school because they're really interested in the topic and they really feel like they're learning a lot. Um and somebody else can be also very highly motivated to do really well, but it's because they're afraid of the consequences of if they get a low grade. So both of them can have high motivation, but it's different types. Um, and in fact, you can actually experience different types of motivation at the same time or switch within them in a single activity, like hosting a podcast. Like you could say, oh, I want this to go really well, but I'm also interested in it. Like, you know, so it's that, and all of this is important to remember, and these types of motivations interplay. So motivation is both has a quantity, I'm more or less motivated, but it also has types, and it's very dynamic, and it's dynamic both in the level and in the type. And different types of motivation have consequences to the way we engage in the task, what we get out of this engagement, yes. Overall well-being, because if I'm always motivated because I'm afraid or I'm fearful of the consequences, that's gonna take a toll.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

Now, about the factors, there isn't one magic factor for motivation, like a single one. Factors play a role differently because people are different and because situations are different.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

But the research does suggest that there are general patterns that highlight certain uh principles of when we are more motivated and motivated with types that are better for our well-being. And one big pattern is that motivation grows and becomes more conducive to our well-being when we feel that the situation we're in is meaningful to who we are, and that or that we have a choice in making it more meaningful, when we feel that we are capable or that and that we are improving, and when we feel connected to others and that we matter to the other people.

SPEAKER_03 13:28

I like that.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

This this pattern suggests that there are three needs, general needs that all of us have that if we're supported, then we are more motivated and better motivated, and that's the need to feel meaningful and autonomous. The need to feel that we are competent and that our competence is growing, and the need to feel connected and that we matter. And when these three needs are supported, we are more motivated, and the type of motivation is more conducive to our well-being.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Which it all connects back to that whole overarching thought about identity. As we briefly mentioned earlier, during this adolescent period, we're developing our sense of self. Beforehand, we're all just kind of kids and we're going on the playground and interacting with one another, and we're just having a fun, good time. But once we reach middle school and high school, we're developing who we are and what we want to be and who we want to become. And during that process, as you mentioned, like those big three factors play a huge role in all of that. So again, we're gonna be an individual and we're gonna also be connected to one another. We are developing our sense of self, and maybe that doesn't play into who your friend is or who your peer is across that table. But there's like that overarching theme again of those three things that are gonna really play a role because connection and developing this sense of autonomy happens to everybody, but the end-alt product of that is gonna be different no matter the person you are. You're not the same as every single other person. And that thought of identity is so crucial to remember because this period of time is when it really starts developing and growing and you start thinking of all these things. So when we're talking about identity, there's a lot of different things that go into it, including interests and values and external factors like grades and expectations. So, how does motivation, when we're talking about identity, tie into these different things like interests and values, or external factors like grades and expectations? Do any of those have more way or less? Or how do we look at those in the sense of motivation?

SPEAKER_00 15:34

So, as I said, like motivation is dynamic and it involves many factors. And both of these factors, the internal factors of our um interests, our uh values, and external factors like others' expectations, the consequences of our actions in the world, rewards, punishment. All of these mix. And they mix in different ways in different activities. So in your hobby, you're more likely to pursue your interests. And in other activities, you may say, Well, I'm not so interested in it, but it's important, nevertheless. And uh so I'm gonna be oriented towards expectations and and maybe grades. Sometimes, I mean, to talk about it relates to the types of motivation. So often or you and your audience may have heard the terms intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivation.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

So are you motivated more by your interests and what's enjoyable to you, which is intrinsic motivation, or are you motivated more by external factors like the reward that you're getting?

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Does that differ as you age, or when do you do you start prioritizing different things, or does it kind of just fluctuate depending on what's occurring?

SPEAKER_00 16:45

It's fluctuate depending on what's occurring and the situations you find yourself in and how much you become then an agent of your own motivation. So there's constraints of the situation. There is the situation itself. Is it like a high-stake competition? If it's a high-stake competition, then the emphasis on the outcome of the competition is very salient, is very important. So it tends to lead people to focus on I want to win, right? And and the reward. But even then, people who can reflect and say, wait a minute, I can see how the competition situation raises fear in me that I'll lose and I don't like it. Can I reframe and say I'm gonna forget about the competition, I'm just gonna enjoy myself. Totally. That takes a lot of power, though, a lot of strength, internal strength to do, but we we can train ourselves to do this. Yeah. The other thing to remember though is that intrinsic and extrinsic uh factors are not in and of themselves bad or good. Okay. That in almost all situations, there's a mix. The mix can be different depending on what the activity is to us, but both matter and both interact throughout our lives in different activities. Yeah. Um, and there are situations where we can be motivated by our interests, and those that we are not motivated, but we feel that it's important. So we need to find another type of motivation to get us going, and we can then rely on external factors. But the important thing is that we then choose it. So we are aware of what motivates us, and we say, Well, here I'm not interested, but I know that it's important, so I'm gonna sort of regulate myself to focus on this so that I can start. Yes. And start being motivated. So it's now if you all you care about is the grade or the reward, it can wear down you. It can wear you down, actually. So it's good for sort of like short-term, really important things that you say, okay, I I know that I don't like it, but I need to do it so you can, you know, but it doesn't sustain yourself and it doesn't contribute to your energy.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

So what you want to ask is like, how is this meaningful to me? And in the end, become the choice maker of how the factors influence you. Exactly. It can so great things like grades in school. It's better if you also have, I mean, grades are grades matter, right? Grades matter to our future, so it's not like you want to say, I don't care about grades. But what is the role of grades in your motivation? So realize yourself the role and in different topics, say, well, here I'm actually interested in this topic, so I'm gonna not let the grades interfere. I'm keeping them as a motivator, but I'm actually harnessing my interest. In this, I'm not interested right now. I need I know I need to do well, so let me focus on the great while knowing that it's your choice that you're gonna do this, knowing also that it can kickstart, but then actually you can also ask, how is this connected to me? Okay, I wasn't interested at the beginning. I started this with a great. Can I find something interesting to me here? Can it connect to the kind of person I want to become? So that's another motivational strategy I continue to ask yourself to look for in situations where you don't feel a lot of motivation or you feel that you need to rely on external factors. Can you develop an internal factor that will make it more meaningful to you to engage?

SPEAKER_01 20:18

For sure. There's this development, this kind of equilibrium we all need to find and this balance between all of these different things. Because as you mentioned, a lot of the times teens get stuck in this kind of process that grades are the only thing that matters. Everything I have to do shows that I'm a good student and I've done all of these successful things. When in reality, when you're only thinking about that and you're not interested in it, and there's not something within you, that meaning that we talked about making you choose those decisions to have good grades. In the end, you're gonna wear down. You're not gonna care about it truly. And what is it going to mean to you? You have to develop as we're developing our sense of selves and autonomy and all of these different things and developing who we are, we start to balance our interests and what we like and what we don't like. For example, I'm a humanities person until I die. I love English, I love history. Science and math don't always come easy to me. However, I still pursue them and I still want to do well on them when, okay, maybe in the end I'm not gonna choose a career in them, and that's okay. That's why I do all of these extra things that are in humanities and I connect it to who I am, but I do baseline do well in the that other stuff. But it does not have to play a role into who I am. It has a purpose because obviously I want to do well in the classes, but is it gonna connect to who I am? Am I gonna overachieve and only think about that and dwell on the fact that okay, maybe my science grade isn't as high as my English grade? No, because that's not who I am deep down. That doesn't have as much purpose to who I am. As we're developing all of these different things, we have to find this balance and this kind of satisfaction. Satisfactory state of you can't keep pushing yourself and pushing yourself to this extent where everything is just kind of at this same level when in reality we cannot put 110% of ourselves into every single thing we do. We have to start prioritizing things. And that's where motivation comes into play because I'm gonna be super motivated to do English and history, and I'm gonna love to learn about that. And I'm gonna pursue it outside of school and in my hobbies and extracurricular activities. But I'm still gonna keep science in my back pocket. But I have to use that motivation that I have from the other things to just balance it out. There has to be an equilibrium. And I like that idea of as you're developing your sense of stealth, it is gonna become easier in the beginning. Yes, it was a little sticky for me to deal with how am I gonna want to stay motivated in science? What's really gonna keep me going? But I found the balance. I found the things that work for me by pursuing my humanities outside of school. I realized, okay, I don't need to prioritize it as much. I keep doing well in it, but I don't need to make it my overarching thing and wear myself down because I didn't do great on one singular quiz. And as you said, finding that balance is so crucial and key. So during those moments in time where teams feel a little stuck or don't realize, like, okay, what am I supposed to do in a situation where I don't feel motivated or I'm not exactly sure how to navigate out of this sense of kind of just stuck? So, how can teens begin to recognize what actually motivates them as opposed to what they think should motivate them and what are factors that they can contribute to their lives to just work on that motivation overall?

SPEAKER_00 23:33

So, this is an excellent question. And I want to relate that to what you just described about yourself, and to think about the issue of our motivation more creatively. So, for example, we come to a school, and the school divides the humanities and the sciences and the maths. Yes. But in real life, that's not necessarily such a distinct division. No. So for example, there's the history of science. Or science itself is actually made up of stories.

SPEAKER_03 24:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

So there's a way to take your interest and you say, okay, how can I find more interest in science? What if I approach science in a different light? In a different way, exactly, and engage it in it in a different way. Now, this is where, again, our characteristics, our interests, our values meet the environment. And will our school support this?

unknown 24:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

So if you if you if you come and then and tell your teachers, okay, I know that I need to do this science course, etc., but can I do it in a way Can I devise a project for myself to learn this content, but in a way, and can you support me and guide me to learn it as a history of science, or as a history, or as a story, the story of the science, the life of the scientists that have made this discovery, right? And suddenly you engage it in a way that is a little more interesting to you.

SPEAKER_03 25:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

But that requires knowing ourselves and also self-advocating.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

And coming to teachers in a way that will recruit them and remind them that they actually are there for us, not for them only, right? Also for them, but that will make their work also interesting for them if that's something that you know will collaborate on me learning more. That's better, right? There's politics here, there's curricula, there's standardized tests, like they need to teach also based on the you know districts. But starting such conversations, I think could be very, be very good. How do you get to know yourself and your motivation in such a way? I would recommend that become an investigator of yourself. So make yourself the scientist a little bit for a week, let's say. And don't judge anything that happens, just take data about yourself for a week. So, for example, at the end of the day, each day, take a minute and write down what happened to you during the day. When was your motivation high? What kind of motivation it was, when it dropped down. For example, when did your motivation go up? When did it drop? Who were you with? Uh, what were you doing? What and what what were your goals in that situation? What did you feel in your body? Were you stressed? Were you excited? Were you bored? Were you embarrassed? So write this, and after a week, look at your journal and look for patterns. And patterns will pop out.

unknown 26:36

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

And once you see the patterns, you can realize how your motivation, one, it's not a fixed trait. It's not, it doesn't stay uh all um the same across the week, but it fluctuates, but then you'll see patterns of in which situations and what the characteristics are. And sometimes you'll find surprises. So you'll say, Well, I don't like science, I'm usually not motivated in science. But this week, suddenly science was so fun. Like, what happened? Like, what was going on? And then you can analyze it in a way that will reveal to you insights about your own motivation and when it goes up and when it goes down. Definitely. And that will give you a lot of agency in realizing how to self-advocate, how to be creative in approaching situations in a way that can be more motivating to you.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

For sure. I just want to highlight both parts of what you just said. First off, that self-advocacy part is so crucial as a teenager. A lot of the time, sometimes we don't take that initiative to express what works for us, who we are as a student. As you said, school is just one environment that we should do it, but there's all these other things in hobbies and extracurricular activities. We are our own individual person, and maybe we don't work in the same ethic as the person, like I said earlier next to us. We're all these individuals. And if we try to pursue something that doesn't work for us, it's not gonna stick, it's not gonna work, and it's not gonna be fun. We wanna make it interesting. And I love the way that you said there's all of these different aspects. Yes, we split it up into different classes and there's the STEM and the humanities, whatever it may be, but they can connect with one another and actually correlate to each other. So self-advocating and telling your teachers, hey, I don't usually do well in this class, but I do want to do well in this class. How can I contribute the factors that I really enjoy into this, integrate it into one another, and make it this awesome, full-blown picture that works for me? But you have to take that first step and you have to say, okay, I'm gonna go talk to my teacher. I'm gonna talk to my parents about addressing this. And it can be scary. There are so many different factors that maybe your teacher doesn't want to help you in that certain sense. But if you never take that initial step, you're not gonna know. You always have to take the chance because what are you gonna do without that? There's gonna be no other side of the story if you don't take that first step.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Right, the alternative is not better.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Exactly. It will not end up being the product you want if you don't even take a chance in the beginning. And then that correlates to all of the things we talked about additionally and all of these factors in this journaling. I love this idea of journaling, introspection and just looking inward is so overlooked in our society at the moment. We don't take a moment to just reflect and kind of think, huh, what went on my what went on during my day? What worked for me? What didn't? What were the positive aspects? What did I enjoy? What did I dislike? All of those factors, as you said, help to develop an autonomy and an identity. And it ends up making you this full-blown picture of who you are and what you like doing. But if we never take that moment in time and we get stuck at this point of, I don't know what I like doing, what worked for me, you're kind of stuck. You don't want to be stuck in the mud. You want to get out of it. And by taking that moment in time, taking literally five minutes to write down what things worked for you, turns out to be such a benefit. And I've talked about this before in various different discussions of just journaling and looking inward. And that is so crucial to just developing yourself, yourself of identity, and all of these different components of your life. So finally, what message would you want to share with teens who feel like their motivation is unpredictable or confusing right now?

SPEAKER_00 30:22

So this is important, right? That motivation is dynamic and it connects to who you are in different situations. And what happens in adolescence is that the whole system is going under renovation. Definitely. Like you're reinventing yourself. And that if you feel like your motivation is inconsistent, it doesn't mean that you are dysfunctional. It means that you're human. And what you can do is to learn about your patterns, learn about who you are in different situations, because what happens is during the day we go through different situations, and in each one we have a role. You are a daughter, you are a student, you are a friend, you are the person who's doing your hobby. Yeah. Learn about yourself, analyze that, and learn what in the situation, and you in that situation helps you be more motivated, more fulfilled, more meaningful, feeling more competent, feeling more related, that you matter. For sure. Um, and then think about like if there are situations where you feel that you're stuck, like you said, what is one thing? You don't need to go and do a whole revolution, but one thing. The bar is like one step from where you are.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Change one thing and think like, what could what would I change? One thing that may change my feeling about it. It may be changing something in the environment, like you know, saying, Oh, can I ask for this task versus this task? It can be maybe changing who you're with, the people you're with. Maybe and it's changing the story that you tell yourself about what you can and cannot do. Maybe there are things that you don't consider and you could consider. So the bigger, the big picture is, especially in our world now, as you're describing, where everything is also changing very, very fast. The most important type of motivation that you can have for yourself is that of continuing to explore who you are. Yeah. Finding how you can be an agent in who you want to become and reinventing yourself, how you engage in different situations. You are not stuck as a single version.

SPEAKER_03 32:40

No, never.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

You have the power to engage and think about how to change yourself, and you just need to do it with little steps each time. For sure. Um, and that gives you a power to become more engaged and motivated and um be an agent in who you wanna you're gonna end up be.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

I love that so much. Let's look at musicians, let's look at artists for a second. Is all of their art pieces, are all of their art pieces the same? No. Is every single musician's album the same? No. They're going through these stages of discovering what works for them, what they like playing with. And that's the same thing for identity. All of these different components, as you said, correlate to who we are, except we don't discover who we are without taking those little steps. But you can't take a full blown leap into, oh, I'm gonna go from this one personality to a whole nother one in one day. That just does not happen. We have to take, as you said, little steps, discovering, okay, maybe I want to try a new friend group, try a new hobby, I want to listen to new music, I want to do all of these different things, but take it slowly, one step at a time. Because if you change everything and all of it doesn't end up working out, maybe one piece worked out, but because it doesn't feel right, you don't pursue that again. So take a deep breath.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

It's so scary. It's also scary. Yeah. So make the like experiment with little things that make it manageable. Even journaling. Journaling, like you don't need to now write like three pages every day. Just have a set of questions and answer with a sentence if that's what helps you.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

For sure. It's and it's so individual, because as we've said through this whole thing, if you want to write three pages of it, go for it. But if you have only the time for three sentences, that is also okay. It depends on who you are, again, what your interests are, all of these different components to just define what works for you. And that's gonna help motivate you throughout your whole life. So, Dr. Kaplan, thank you so much for sharing your insights today. Motivation doesn't always follow logic, it rises and dips in ways that can feel frustrating or discouraging. However, understanding the science behind why motivation changes and what actually fuels it can give teens a sense of clarity and control.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Thank you very, very much for having me. It's great meeting you.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

I it was great meeting you too. So, to all of our listeners, motivation may feel unpredictable, but it doesn't mean you're failing. Sometimes it's a signal of stress, overload, or lack of alignment with your goals and who you are. But it is a place to learn what matters to you most, and developing that identity is so crucial. But take it step at a time. Do not always think that you're stuck in this one position forever, because you are not. So thank you again, Dr. Kaplan, for helping us better understand the science of motivation. And thank you to everyone listening for being a part of this Growing Forward episode. I'm grateful to continue these conversations with you as we learn how to grow in knowledge, confidence, and purpose. Until next time, signing off with Positivity, your host, Sadie Sonoborn.