Harmony with Nature: Something Everyone Should Prioritize with Dr. Terry Hartig

In this episode, we are talking about something that touches all of us, whether we notice it or not: our harmony and connection to nature. Currently, we hear a lot about mental health resources, coping strategies, and support networks, and while all of those matter, something as ordinary as the environment we live in can play a huge role in how we think, feel, and connect. Some teens feel calmer after a walk in the park. Others feel more grounded near trees or water. But the big question is why? Is it just imagination, or is there truly science behind it? For this episode, we’re going to explore that question through research and real insight by welcoming Dr. Terry Hartig.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everyone, and welcome to Growing Forward, a podcast by Positive World, Positive People. As always, I'm your host, Sadie Sunborn Malachi, a 15-year-old girl from Southern California, and I'm so glad you're here with me today. If you're a new listener to the podcast, welcome. Growing forward is a space where we talk honestly about what it means to grow up, from relationships and identity to resilience and the environment and all the things that come in between to shape who we become. Today we're talking about something that touches all of us, whether we notice it or not, every time we step outside, our connection to nature. We hear a lot about mental health resources, coping strategies, therapy, and support networks, and of course, all of those things matter. But something as ordinary as the environment we live in can play a huge role in how we think, feel, and connect, not just with ourselves, but with others. Some teams feel calmer after a walk in the park. Others feel more grounded near trees or water. But why? Is it just imagination or is there science behind it? For this episode, we're going to explore that question through research and real insight. So I am so honored to welcome Dr. Harry Hartig to Growing Forward. Dr. Hartig is a professor of psychology and a leading researcher in environmental psychology, especially in how natural environments support mental restoration, reduce stress, and contribute to health and well-being. His work looks at not just how nature feels good, but how it actually interacts with our psychology and physiology. So without further ado, Dr. Hartig, thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Well, thank you, Sadie. Thank you for the invitation to join you and your audience in considering the kinds of questions that I've been working with in my research.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Awesome. So let's begin. What led you to study environmental psychology, especially the relationship between natural environments and human well-being?

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Actually began in my teens, I could say, possibly even earlier. I felt that I spent a lot of time out in the woods behind my home in Michigan. We had the crick there, that is Creek, for those of you who don't come from the Midwest, Creek. And we had the forest beyond the Creek. And I often would be going out there on my own with my siblings, with friends, and we would explore and wander and just spend time there. And then later in my life, after I graduated from high school, I went for a backpacking trip in the Sierra Nevada of California. And that was a revelation for me. A revelation in the sense of I can do this. And oh, this is an amazing environment to spend time in. And the realizations from that experience in particular led me to understand here's something that I could do for other people. And that is to provide some kind of guidance leading them into the wilderness and leading them into another sense of themselves and their capability. And that's initiated then program of studies and psychology and further on from there.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Awesome. I think that, as you said, personal stories can be so influential to the paths we choose. As someone who has gone to camp since I was a very, very young child, I have always interacted with nature over the summer. And then I go back to school and things get busy. And sometimes I don't always stay grounded to that person. However, just like you, in those instances when I was in nature, I was by a creek. I was by all of these outdoor massive pine trees. I feel super grounded. I feel good. And now to this moment, I never understood why there was such a difference and how the nature itself actually helped me. So I'm really glad that we're going to be talking about this episode to maybe help every individual who has had these moments in time where they're like, huh, I wonder why I feel this way. What is making me feel this way? So why might adolescents be especially responsive, either positively or negatively, to natural environments compared to children or adults? Or throughout our entire lives, do we kind of have the same response?

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Well, I don't know that adolescents are necessarily more or less responsive. They may be responsive in different ways because they have rather different needs. Uh, they would come into an experience of what they take to be nature from some different starting point. But something I think that comes through in some of the research, for example, by my colleague Kalibi Korpola from the University of Tampere in Finland, these are places that young people seek out, in particularly when they are trying to get a sense of what is happening around them, trying to consolidate a sense of who they are in the face of challenges from their surroundings, their social surroundings, the world at large. So I think this idea we refer to self-regulation and the development of identity become really important in ways for adolescents, perhaps, that may be not so prominent for people in other age categories.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

I think that nature itself is this place of discovery. It's something that, as you said, is really consistent. And when you go out there, you can find those moments of self-reflection. And in previous episodes, we've really emphasized identity and this finding of autonomy. It happens during this adolescent period. And from there on, it grows into who you become. However, nature intertwines into that perfectly because, as I said before, it's super consistent. It's always there. It's a place of reflection and it can provide this environment or this kind of habitat in a way that really sources this positive identity creation. When sometimes in our busy lives, day to day, we're bouncing around from doing school to extracurricular activities to homework. And then all of a sudden it's 10 p.m. and we just have to go to sleep. And the next morning we wake up and the routine starts again. However, if we go out into nature, it almost feels like time stops in some sort of way. It's this kind of relief. It helps us all cope. It's this place where things don't feel real almost anymore because it's just, it's just serene. So, based on your discoveries, how does nature influence our stress response or emotional states at the biological or cognitive levels? How does it help us feel less stressed?

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Well, I would like to start answering by saying it really depends on what we mean by nature. And this is a recurring challenge, this definition of nature, what we mean by nature when we're doing this research. And we have to remember that nature is a very complicated term, it has many different meanings. But if we talk about the natural environment and the history of people in the natural environment, we do well to remember that nature hasn't always been so very kind to us. It's not always a benign presence that nature has over the millennia really been a challenge for human well-being. Now we think of nature as a place we go out to when we can, under circumstances we choose, to feel in particular ways. And that nature, a relatively benign nature, supports a kind of stress response. It is a place that we go out to for stress recovery or other forms of restoration. And then it's a matter not only of it being a place where we are not facing the stressful demands we left behind, but also a place that in some ways is not imposing a social agenda on us, is not imposing additional demands. We can just let our attention go freely to what we find interesting, and so forth. We have a variety of ideas that we work with in research about what is actually happening when the person is in this natural setting that they have chosen to go out to. And I wasn't used to the difficulties that it presented. And I think this is a big part of the earlier research on nature experience, that sometimes it is difficult. It presents us with difficulties that we have to deal with. And they're rather different kinds of difficulties compared to the difficulties we face in everyday life at school and so forth. But am I physically capable of doing this? For example, climbing up to this mountain pass. Can I deal with this discomfort that I have sleeping on the ground or being wet when it's raining and cold and so forth? So in in those respects, it presents challenges that we can handle. Those respects, it's a kind of stressful experience, but in a growthful way.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Definitely. I think that, as you said, nature has these kind of it does have natural difficulties. Like you said, there's these mountains you have to climb. You have to sleep on the ground. It provides challenges in new ways, maybe not as before when we were hunting for our own foods and having to survive off of what was around us. And sometimes we wouldn't know where our next meal was. But now in a new light, in the era that we're currently living in, it still does provide these difficult moments in time when we have to work for something or work on something. And sometimes to some individuals, that is not the most appealing feeling. However, is it still important for people to push their boundaries and go out into nature, even if it isn't their favorite thing?

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Well, I think for some people, some of the time, yes. For other people, they do look to nature with the kind of experience that you were referring to initially, and that is they want to go out to a serene place. They want to have some quiet, some cognitive quiet around them. They want to leave behind demands, stressful social circumstances, work-related demands, and so forth. They just want to, in some sense, turn off this ongoing work, this mental work, and just be for a while. And I think that's uh tremendously important. And the the importance of that is reflected in much of the research that emphasizes the restorative values of nature experience, particularly for people in these relatively wealthy urbanized countries like the ones that that we live in.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

So you just mentioned the word restorative, and some people talk about nature as a break from stress, as we mentioned earlier. However, like you said before, restoration, restorative. Can you explain what the difference is, especially for teens who might feel overwhelmed between kind of this break and what restoration actually is within nature?

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Well, you might think of a break as an opening for restoration, but it's not all of restoration. So a break would be setting aside work or moving away from particular demands, whether they're social or work-related, study related. But then it's a question of, okay, where are you now? Where do you go to from what you are leaving behind? So if you go into something that's also draining you in some way or another, it's not particularly restorative. You may have a break from something else, but it's not necessarily restorative. So when we think of restoration, we think not only of the definition in negative terms, what we're getting away from, but also what we're going toward. We go into something that is positively engaging, that we find interesting, that holds our attention, holds our engagement, keeps us there, and keeps us from drifting away, drifting back into whatever difficulties we've been facing before, worries and negative thoughts and so forth.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Sure. And in those moments when maybe sometimes we don't realize that we need an actual restorative moment in time, how do adolescent members realize when, okay, let me take a break or let me actually have to restore myself? What is the differentiating point to realize that?

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Well, some of that will have to do where you go and what you do when you take that break. And how much time you have then for a break that allows for going further away or doing other kinds of uh activities. So uh one of the the topics that comes up in uh some of the research that is going on more recently has to do with the use of digital devices. So people take a break, they go sit out in a park somewhere, but then they're engaged with their mobile the entire time rather than engaging with the the natural features around them, the natural environment that they're in.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Yeah. So in those moments in time when maybe people say that I'm gonna go take a break, I'm gonna go in nature, but then all of a sudden they're sitting on their phone and they're either doing something on it, interacting with social media, still texting people around them. What do they do instead? How do people immerse themselves into nature in a different light?

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Because sometimes you don't always know how well I understand how difficult it may be for some people. I myself will leave my phone at home and go for a long walk. And go for a long walk in the countryside around here, and I may be away for three hours and I don't have my phone with me. And I understand that for some people that's very, very difficult. But I find that's somehow easy to do once I know that I've done it before. And that it's rewarding to do that. Just not have to think about being in some other world. I can just be in that countryside that I'm walking through.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

And I think for adolescent members themselves, currently, we're now, we're the new generation growing up with technology and media. From pretty much the day that we were born, it's been around us. It's not just been a screen in front of us, but it's been in schools, it's been in outside sources, whatever it may be, we have been constantly around technology and it's been growing with us. So as you said, it's very difficult to realize when we need to take an actual break and step away from it. And it is challenging at some points in time. But I think having that personal reflection and looking inward and being like, what are where are my priorities at this moment? Because if I am that dependent on a piece of technology right in front of me 24-7, what does that mean? And how does how does it affect us when we don't take those moments in time to just be with nature? What are the negative sides if we don't just take a break?

SPEAKER_01 15:51

I think it's true in other domains. So maybe setting aside the technological options to be with people one is with, to be in a different setting needn't be nature. Yeah. But here I I have to admit that you and your cohort, your age cohort, are living in a world that's quite different from the one I grew up with. I I have long habits of not carrying a phone with me and not attending to social media, for example. It was easy for me to decide. I never wanted to go into social media, Facebook, or otherwise, because I just saw that as being at odds with how I wanted to communicate with people. But I do think that these are choices that people of all ages can make, how they want to use the technological options, rather than feel that they must do what everybody else does. So I would encourage that kind of reflection.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

We all have that choice to take a step away from our phones, no matter if all of these social pressures around us or the internet is very appealing. We do have the ability to just take a step back, no matter what we say, even though it might be difficult at times and sometimes it may feel that we can't. We can. We have the ability to. Every human has the ability to put that phone down and go outside and interact in a new way. And it may seem challenging, especially for my generation as we've been constantly surrounded by it. But taking those moments, that will help us in the end, all because it will direct us away from it. It will give us those opportunities in the future to not be solely dependent on it. And you briefly mentioned relationships and interacting with one another as a different mechanism. So, what roles does shared outdoor experiences, including hiking, community gardens, and even sitting outdoors with your friends, play in strengthening social relationships and the relationship you have with the environment?

SPEAKER_01 17:51

Yeah, well, it's a good question, Sadie. A lot of the research that we have done on nature experience and restorative benefits of nature experience, has focused on what is happening with the individual person. So, what is the individual experiencing in the way of stress recovery or attentional recovery when they are out in a natural setting? But more recently, we understand that what is happening in an individual may have implications for other people. That if one person is less stressed, that may lead to another person near them being less stressed. At the same time, we also appreciate that people are often going out into natural settings together with other people. And they may be able to relax together. The one person's relaxation and winding down may enable the other's relaxation and winding down. And they may see things that they appreciate together that allow for a memorable experience that then becomes part of what constitutes their relationship, this set of shared memories and sense of shared values and what they see. So we see more of an interest in what we can think of as relational resources that people can build up. And that main needs to be reinforced and maintained and even restored as time goes on, as people develop a relationship and live in some way together, go through life together.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Indeed, we have so much impact on how we interact with one another and the influences on what we actually do with each other. It's the same thing as different types of peer pressures, but in a positive light in a in a way. If you yourself go out into nature and start talking about all these positive experiences that you have, why would your friends not follow? Why would they not be intrigued to do it as well? But you have to be that person in some instances to take that initiative and go for it first. You have to say, wow, I over the weekend I put my phone down for the entire day. I went camping with my family and it felt wonderful. It felt like this relief from the world. I didn't know what was going on. And maybe at some points, yeah, that was scary. I was not connected to everyone else and everything that was happening around me. But I had that moment of reflection and I had that moment to just be with myself. And if you start saying that and you start providing that kind of message to others, why would they not follow? It's the same thing with doing different things in lives and going to therapy and interacting with your friends outside and going to like a certain restaurant, you're gonna have an influence on people in that light. So why not environment as well? It all correlates to one another. And as you said, in the future, if you keep working on that and when you start building further relationships and deeper relationships, it really can transpire into a healthy thing. However, is it actually like significantly proven, or is it crucial that we have those moments in time outside in nature with others? Because maybe I don't get the chance to go out with my best friend in nature because things just don't align. But is it significant to make the time to go out into nature with that person?

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Well, I think people need to make time for recovery, for restoration generally, as individuals and in their relationships to have time for one another. Going out to natural settings may be really supportive for the individual or shared relational restoration goals. But uh there are other places that also can work very well for these purposes, going to see a movie together or going out to a cafe together, just going for a walk in a local park as partly nature, but also very much a designed and built environment. So I I I don't see restoration as something that's uh necessarily only occurring in natural settings. And it may be the case that one person in a friendship or in a couple relationship has a strong preference for one kind of setting. They want to go to a restaurant, they don't really want to go out to a wild area. Okay. Then that's a matter for that couple, that friendship pair to negotiate.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Yeah, it's a balance of all these different things. And maybe sometimes, as we said earlier, your interests of going out into nature and going on a 10 plus mile hike and doing backpacking and sleeping on the ground, maybe that does not appeal to you, but that's okay. But finding an equilibrium of things, especially when you're in your friendships and relationships and maybe towing off one another and finding that balance of, okay, maybe we don't need to go on an overnight backpacking trip, but let's just go to our local hike, maybe. And it's going to take us 30 minutes and just being out there together will strengthen our bonds. However, in a lot of instances, adolescents don't always have access to these outside sources. They don't always get to drive to these places with these beautiful views or interact with nature in the same way. So, how does inequality and access to nature influence well-being, especially in urban settings? And how can teens or adolescent members figure out ways to still interact with nature if they don't always have the opportunity to?

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Well, that's a good question. And I do recognize that there are real important equity issues here. And those equity issues are also a matter for research, that there are disadvantaged groups, systematically disadvantaged groups in different countries. And part of the answer is make the best of what you have. Find the beauty in what is there. Do take the time to look for it. Take the time to be with others to try to discover it and appreciate it. If it's not in the physical environment around you, then there are other sources. For example, in listening to or making music, making food and so forth. But still, we come back to this matter of the definition of nature. We can find beauty of nature in many different instances if we take the time to look carefully and appreciate what is there.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

All these different things can be nature, and it may not seem that you have this beautiful massive forest to go into and spend hours in and take a moment by a creek to just sit and be. However, as you said, being observant and looking around you and finding those little moments in time or finding those little pieces within your community can still be so beneficial. And it also brings us back to the idea that nature doesn't always have to be going outdoors and doing all of these different things in a massive environment. It can be a balance of different things. And maybe sometimes you go walk in your local park or you just look at the birds that are around you, even if it's just a couple of pigeons on the street, whatever it may be, finding those little moments in time to just recenter yourself is going to be super beneficial. And yes, right now that issue of inequality and not having the same access to everything across the globe is super, super significant. But we can take that and we can work with it and we can aim to look for something within our community and not always work against it. Because if we have this negative mentality that I don't have access to all of this stuff, I can't do this, I won't have time to be restorative, whatever it may be, and just go on this cycle of negativity. What is that going to prove to us? It's not going to change anything. So at least working with what you have and having this positive mentality and going through it with just kind of this new light will still be so beneficial, even if there isn't the same balance of access as maybe somebody who lives a couple miles away. So this correlates to this next question of for teens who don't live near these forests or wide open spaces, like we said, do nearby nature parks, gardens, and trees still provide measurable benefits? And does just interacting with this stuff hand in hand really prove to be the same amount of restorative energy?

SPEAKER_01 25:59

Well, again, it depends on where they're coming from. So, I mean, if they have difficult everyday circumstances, their local park, even if it's not the most pristine wilderness, most expansive wilderness, it may still provide a very restorative setting. And similarly, people who are living, teens who are living out in those wild areas, they may face their everyday demands and difficulties and they may find some kind of break and restorative opportunity out in the nearby natural settings, but they may also value going into other kinds of settings that are less accessible to them.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

And are there any processes or habits that we can incorporate into our lives day-to-day to just make us a little bit more aware of what's going on around us to take those moments in time to be restorative within nature?

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Well, I have a colleague, Freddie Lemayas, and he is a clinical psychologist who did research on this, how people acquire meditation skills and the skill of being mindful, just taking a taking a moment, stopping, being there in the moment, and through breathing and attentiveness to what is happening around one. One has more of a sense of I am here in this place and appreciating this place. My thoughts aren't drifting off elsewhere. I am engaged. This kind of practice is supported by natural environments and can help people appreciate more what is there in the way of a natural environment, even if some might consider it to be rather impoverished.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

I don't really need to do that. What is it going to actually do? When in reality, it's proven to be so beneficial in so many different ways. And maybe your source of meditation isn't just sitting there with your knees crossed and saying, for like five minutes, maybe that's not it. But just going out there and staring at things or journaling or listening to some nice music and just taking a moment to be, maybe that's your way of meditating. And it's so beneficial for all of us. It's just finding the way that it works for you. And as I said, it doesn't always have to be the same as the person next to you, but it is really proven to be so beneficial on so many different levels.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Stopping up and being present, being in the moment. These are the kinds of things that we talk about quite commonly. I mean, a person can be in a fantastically beautiful natural environment in some sense, but not there at all in some other sense. They're not attending to what's going on. And we come back to this discussion we had earlier about the use of the digital devices. You're there, you're engaged with your phone, and you're not really attending to what is what is around you.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Yeah, exactly. So lastly, if you could share one key truth with teens about their connection to the environment, something you think they deserve to know, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 29:23

It's a lifetime relationship and you spend time building that relationship. And there's a lot that you will gain and growing in that relationship. But it's like other relationships that you have to attend to the other partner. You have to listen, watch carefully, care. And that's my recommendation. My sense is, Sadie, that your audience includes young people who are relatively alert, intelligent, and caring. And I would encourage them to continue with those strengths, intelligent, caring way, engage with the natural environment. That is the environment you all will be caring for as we go further on. I'm going to be walking around on this earth for a while yet, but not so much longer. Hopefully, all of you will be here much, much longer, and you will take good care of each other and of this place that we have around us.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Exactly. Nature is here for our entire lives. We're on this world for the entirety of our existence. So working with it and creating a bond that will last us for our entire lifetime is so crucial. And as you said, it's like any other relationship in the way that it will fluctuate. Some days you might not feel like you want to go out in nature, and maybe sometimes it just does not feel like you're finding a restorative balance. However, if you keep working on it and you keep working for that kind of goal of finding a balance of all these different things and being in your life and being busy and all of these different components, and then finding those moments in time to just take a break and finding that equilibrium is going to be so crucial, but we all have to try and work for it. And eventually we will find that balance that will work for us. Dr. Hartig, thank you so much for sharing your insights and your time. Nature is more than scenery, it's a source of restoration, identity support, and emotional balance. Understanding that connection scientifically helps us value it, not as an optional luxury, but as a real contributor to adolescent well-being is incredibly crucial. So thank you so much for being here today.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Thank you for having me. Good luck with your work.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

And to everyone listening, your environment matters. The spaces you spend time in, whether outdoors or indoors, influence your mood, your thoughts, and even who you're becoming. So remember, take those moments of reflection. Find a restorative practice in your lives, no matter what it may be. And you will find that balance and equilibrium between nature and who you are. So thank you again, Dr. Heart Take, and thank you to our listeners for being a part of this episode of Growing Forward. I'm excited to continue this journey with you, exploring the many forces around us that shape not just our lives, but our inner worlds. Until the next episode, signing off with Positivity, your host, Sadie Sunaborn Malachy.